WHYcast transcript episode 3

WHYcast episode
Episode Nr.	3

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Transcript episode 3

Nancy: Hi and welcome to the WHYcast episode 3. I’m Nancy and I’m Ad. And we are the hosts of the only podcast about a hacker camp in the world. This volunteer run event will take place next year in the Netherlands, 42 kilometers above Amsterdam, from August 8th to 12th, 2025. So Ad, what are we talking about today?

Ad: Well, we’re talking about what I did last weekend. We have some news about the CFP. We have a very cool interview with Mitch Altman.

Mitch Altman: No way, dude!

Ad: Okay, yeah, just did it. And he said, sure. Also, we’re going to talk a little bit about what you are going to do at WHY. And where to hack, the vacancy of the week, the weekly history lesson, and some listener questions, or at least one.

Nancy: Yeah, very interesting. So you went to Hackfest.

Ad: I went to Hackfest, as was already announced last week, and I went there. It was awesome. Two days in a giant hall with many makers and hackers, and there were people showing off all kinds of projects. There were lectures, workshops. I did also a lecture on MQTT, Tasmota, and Node-RED—so a little introduction into IoT at home and how you could start with very limited materials, but get something up and running in less than 45 minutes, because that was all the time I had. And I think it went very good.

Nancy: And how was the demo fest? You were also there on Saturday night?

Ad: That was awesome. There was a whole history lesson on the demo scene and how it evolved, the different types of home computers used, and then the shift to, well, partially at least, the shift to PC. I mean, the retro consoles are still very well used in the demo scene—still Commodore 64s, still Amigas—but also the PC demos, the size coding so you get stuff within 64K or even in 4K, 4,096 bytes of information, making a running program with visuals and sounds and everything. That was also then after… that is, well, history lesson, basically, the live coding, the byte coding. And that is a TIC-80 machine, which is a virtual console. It’s not a physical device; it’s a fantasy console, a programming environment, a retro console-like computer running on, well, pretty much anything. And you have certain limitations to create your software in. There was a DJ playing, and you had to make some fancy visuals to go with the music—VJing, basically, by programming. Yeah, basically, by programming, there were three people competing against each other on a big beamer, and they would just sometimes zoom in on one of the people’s code, and you could actually see them just adding some code, running it, going back to the editor, changing a bit, trying it again, changing some numbers, making a mistake, getting a bunch of errors, going back. So you just see it grow. And I’m not entirely sure if they did it this time, but you could also impose a size limit on that and say, no, the code is only valid if it’s less than 512, or 1,024, or something like that. It’s good to improve your coding skills. And it’s just awesome to watch. And those people have real skills and very cool animations within the limitations of the device. I could put a link in the show notes to the TIC-80.

Nancy: Sure. Yeah, please do.

Ad: I’ll look that up and put them in the show notes. From my perspective, what I always tell people is when you limit people, they get more creative. So I think that helps a lot. And great tunes. And all supported with some great laser shows, because Dimitri was there with lasers. And I do have a little video with Dimitri that I’ll put in probably next week, with some prototypes and some secret stuff.

Nancy: Yeah. Dimitri is from the hackerspace BitLair in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam, and he’s always busy with lasers and fire.

Ad: Yeah. And organizer of Hacker Hotel, which I’m wearing the hoodie from by accident, actually. It wasn’t planned, but it’s a nice coincidence.

Nancy: You shouldn’t say that, Ad.

Ad: Oh, it was all planned. It’s just not the right affluence. It’s all planned. Yeah.

Nancy: This was so planned.

Ad: Yeah. Yeah. But there were also much more creative projects. There was someone who makes stamps with 3D printers and someone who made—actually several people who made their own musical instruments: a 3D printed bass guitar. There was someone who, with a bunch of recycled materials, actually made a music table, basically, with, I think, like 40 or 50 touch-sensitive pads that you could play like a marimba or a xylophone. Oh, wow. But then it spits out MIDI, and it was laid out like an accordion, or actually…

Nancy: The music teacher in me really likes this—very cool.

Ad: Very cool. It was really awesome. I hope I can find a picture of that. If so, then it’ll be on screen—if not, I’m very sorry, but it was awesome, and you just have to come next time, and I hope they bring the same stuff.

Nancy: It’s very great to hear that it was such a success, because I heard a lot of people reacting on Hackfest that it really was awesome. It was the first edition, and they’ll probably do it again next year.

Ad: Oh, I really hope so, because it was awesome. Yeah, very cool.

Ad: I think that was enough. I think that was enough about the past. Let’s go to the future.

Nancy: I reached out to Team:Content, and I heard that actually the first CFPs are coming in. So the first proposals, I mean, are coming in. So this means that we actually already have content for WHY 2025, which is pretty early, 11 months in advance. But like we had—in an earlier episode, we were talking to Dadi, and she says it’s a lot of work to review all the proposals that are coming in. So if you’re really curious about what came in, you could consider becoming a reviewer of course.

Ad: That would be a nice way to get the scoop and see what’s coming.

Nancy: There you have an early sneak peek on the possible program, because not everybody will make it to the program. But yeah. If you… if you are interested to have a sneak peek, you can reach out to Team:Content and become a reviewer. What… I asked Dadi how many proposals came in.

Nancy: Two and a half. So we have a start.

Ad: Two and a half? How do you…

Nancy: Okay. So the and a half, I have to explain, because Dadi said you can propose something that is not entirely finished yet. So you can already… you can start with a draft version.

Ad: Okay. Yeah.

Nancy: Fair. And the closing date is, of course, Towel Day—that’s the 25th of May next year, coming year basically. You can change your proposal in the meantime. So if you have some ideas and you want to have it checked by Team:Content, they can also give you some feedback, maybe, if you’re not quite sure if this is something that fits one of the four themes that they have. So if you have a suggestion, should… state it. So you can already start with your proposal if it’s not quite there yet. That’s perfectly fine. So Dadi asked me to tell our listeners that. Cool. But I think it’s very great news that the first couple of ones are in.

Ad: Yes. Yes. It’s very exciting. So that’s going to be maybe two and a half of the 200 interesting talks that we’re expecting. But first, at Hackfest, like I said, I spoke with Mitch. And one of the things that he embodies, basically, is community and how working together and teaching and learning and sharing and creating stuff—creating stuff together is really great. And that was really the vibe at Hackfest. He is coming to WHY.

Ad: He can’t wait. And he will bring his workshop. And he’ll be talking about his workshop a little bit in this next clip. So, guys.

Ad: So, we’re here at Hackfest, as we already announced last week. And I’m here with Mitch Altman. Very welcome—great to have you on our little show on the WHYcast. And first of all, you were the opening speaker at the event here yesterday, because this is day two. Have you been enjoying yourself?

Mitch Altman: Oh, yes. It’s been wonderful. I’m totally physically exhausted, but you know, these kinds of events, I always am physically exhausted, but energized in so many other ways. Absolutely.

Ad: You started off with, well, I guess the keynote speaker position. And your message was basically that it comes down to community. Right?

Mitch Altman: It was about not being the cool kid, or not being worried about being the cool kid. You know, we can come together and just do cool stuff and not worry about who’s cooler or who’s competing better or whatever. It just doesn’t matter. We’re all helping each other, no matter what our skills are at the moment. We can always get better. And we can do that so much better in community than we can do on our own.

Ad: Because you started off with talking about hackerspaces and the time when you actually realized those things existed. That was in?

Mitch Altman: 2006. Because now, a long time ago, it didn’t feel that long to me. But yeah, I’ve been to a lot of these events since then, and I keep coming back because they still energize me in so many ways that I can’t even explain. It’s just part of me, and I love being part of them.

Ad: And you also spoke about the Hope Festival in the U.S. of A. You’re one of the people who organized it.

Mitch Altman: My first hacker conference was Hope: Hackers on Planet Earth in 2006. That was my first hacker event. That’s what got me into all this mess, and I’m so grateful. They invited me to give a talk about TV-B-Gone, my invention that turns TVs off in public places for people who don’t know, and yeah, that got me sort of internet famous. Someone from Hope invited me, and I was home instantly. It was an amazing feeling—feeling part of a group of people for the first time in my life rather than feeling afraid. And it felt so wonderful to be there. Everyone was sharing and wanting to learn from me and me from others, and yeah, it was just great. When it ended, I wanted more, and so I’ve been on it ever since.

Ad: And the next one was in Berlin.

Mitch Altman: Someone from Chaos Computer Club was there and said, hey, can you give this talk over at this thing that we do in Germany? I think you’ll like it. I did, and that was in Berlin at the time; now it’s in Hamburg. But I fell in love with Berlin, and I still have friends from that event to this day. Of course, when that one ended, I wanted more. Then the third one, there was this talk about hackerspaces and how to start your own. I’m like, wow—hackerspaces, that sounds awesome. I’m going to do that. There were friends of mine there from New York, from San Francisco, where I lived at the time, and Washington DC. We went home and helped each other start some of the early hackerspaces in North America. We got a lot of help from the German CCC people, and it happened. We became examples for others to start. People would visit us, and we’d help them, and we’d learn from them, and they’d learn from us, and it spread quite rapidly.

Ad: And same with hacker conferences. A lot of that is an outgrowth of that third hacker conference you went to, right?

Mitch Altman: That was Chaos Communications Camp, kind of the counterpart of the Dutch camps, which is why it’s part of WHY. The Dutch people, the CCC people—it’s all a lot of overlap, and we all help each other, which is part of why it’s all so cool.

Ad: And you’ve been to some of the Dutch camps?

Mitch Altman: My first Dutch camp was HAR—Hacking at Random—in 2009. That was the first Dutch camp after I came into the scene in 2006. I know there’s a long history—I think the first one was ’94, the Galactic Hacker Party. I met people involved with that; one lives in Berlin now, and I’m friends with him. I was part of orga for Observe, Hack, Make in 2013—wonderful event. There was controversy with the sponsor, which was unfortunate, and how mean some people were to each other, which was really not necessary. We all make our own choices, but we can live and learn and grow with one another so much better than hacking one another. It was still a really wonderful event, and I enjoyed myself. I had a hardware hacking area like I always organize these things. My first two hacker events—Hope and then 23C3 in Berlin—no one was making anything, which seemed unfortunate to me. So at my third event, Chaos Camp in 2007, I set up a workshop area—really similar to what’s here at Hackfest—with ten soldering irons, and it was mobbed. People made all sorts of things; people were engaged, smiling. It was a little hacker-soldering community party, and that set me off, and I’ve been doing it ever since. Now I’m not the only one who has these things at Chaos Camp, at Chaos Congress, at the Dutch camps, and all these other events. Lots of people teach soldering and making things, and that’s so cool to see.

Ad: And you’ll be doing that at WHY as well?

Mitch Altman: Oh yeah, absolutely. Can’t keep me away.

Ad: Well, thank you very much. These were some great stories, and I’m sure there are plenty more. We might invite you on again if you’re willing to.

Mitch Altman: Oh yeah, happy to share.

Ad: Cool. Thanks very much. We’re going back inside to enjoy the last few hours of Hackfest. Bye for now.

Ad: So that was a very cool interview with Mitch. Oh my goodness.

Nancy: Yeah, I’m so much looking forward to meeting that guy.

Ad: Very cool. He’s really kind and sharing and enthusiastic and energetic. Like he said, he’s physically tired but energized in so many ways—that’s a great way to put it when you come off from an event like that and also from WHY. He also told about how he participated in creating more events and starting hackerspaces as well. So that is part of the hacker community and events like Hope, like WHY, like the CCC camps. It’s being part of it—being in the organization of WHY, being a speaker, doing workshops. And I heard you are going to do stuff at WHY as well. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Nancy: Well, no—I did at MCH 2022.

Ad: Yeah.

Nancy: Well, like you said about Mitch doing a workshop, we have 200 amazing talks and speakers telling us about all the crazy cool stuff in the hacker scene. There’s also a lot to do at WHY. For example, I did three workshops at MCH 2022. And I happened to be at the COP—of course we have workshops around gamification, because that’s my… That’s your thing.

Ad: Definitely—that’s my thing, yeah.

Nancy: How to use gamification to improve your hacking skills and innovation. But there’s always so much more than lectures. One of the themes that makes it possible for big kids and small kids is Team:Family Zone. They have their own village, but they call it Family Zone. I interviewed Pikachu a while back on what Family Zone is and what to expect. So let’s listen to Pikachu.

Pikachu: Yeah, sure. Well, I did volunteering on MCH as well, also for Family Zone, and I’ve been volunteering since around Char, but then for a different team. I’m from Germany, so my English can be a little imperfect. Overall, that’s a bit about my history. For Family Zone, we want to be a hotspot for everything regarding young hackers. We want to encourage people to do things, break things, have fun with things, toy around with stuff—that’s our goal. We’re not a daycare specifically, but we want to encourage creativity.

Nancy: Very cool. Do you have examples of what you did in Family Zone at MCH?

Pikachu: We had a riddle, where you had to solve it by going around the forest. We hid secrets and organized that before the event. We had a Minecraft server workshop, teaching setup, with parents moderating. We had spontaneous building with materials from older hardware and Chromebooks. Last time it was around 20–25 projects, and we look forward to new ideas.

Nancy: Making sure Family Zone is family-friendly, right?

Pikachu: Of course. Our main task is safety, enough room, tents—so people can drop in with kids or a camper van and enjoy the camp. We’ll likely do volunteering for kids again, where they help in Family Zone or other teams—get them while they're young, as angels. It was great fun; kids got volunteer T-shirts.

Nancy: It’s a crazy cool learning experience—for kids and adults.

Pikachu: Last camp, we had daycare for really little children so parents could attend talks. We plan the same, depending on financing. We were proud to organize that. We also had bouncy castle things—they were a big hit. We’ll probably have bouncy castles again; maybe even for adults. We’re also planning talks together with Team:Content, maybe an “Explain It Like I’m Five” series. More updates on that later.

Nancy: People can send in a CFP for the family village, targeted at families and younger kids.

Pikachu: We plan a workshop tent and a main tent, with talks in both. We have a dedicated tent for that.

Nancy: Is there anything specific your team needs help with?

Pikachu: We’re only three or four people, so we’re a small team. If you want to bring your child and help organize new projects, we’re open to ideas. You don’t have to run them yourself or cover costs—tell us ideas, and we’ll arrange it for you.

Nancy: So you’re open to cool ideas and people to help out.

Pikachu: Yes, exactly—a lot.

Nancy: Okay. Good luck with preparations, and let’s make an awesome WHY.

Pikachu: Thank you for doing this podcast and getting the word out.

Nancy: That guy in his signature hat is so funny, lovely, caring, and recognizable. If you want to find Pikachu, just search “Pikachu.” And bring your family.

Nancy: So let’s go to the next episode of Where to Hack. Each week we’ll share where to find WHY-minded people. Where will we hack soon?

Ad: Soon—VICON is coming up on October 31 and November 1, Halloween and the day after, Thursday and Friday. A bunch of speakers and a lot of cool WHY-minded people.

Nancy: It’s more a conference than a maker exhibit like Hackfest, but with a Halloween theme—dark, gloomy, colorful lights. Last time we had bat straws in drinks and cute decorations. Dressing up isn’t required but highly applauded—please do. Many WHY organizers are in WICCON, the Women in Cybersecurity Conference, organized by WICSA (Women in Cybersecurity Community Association). It spells WICCA by coincidence. The logo is a black cat; find details at wicca.nl or wiccon.nl. Show notes have links.

Nancy: In the gamification track we’ll play a D&D game around “preaches,” play “100 Ways to Die at Work,” a bit nasty but Halloween. We’ll play HackShield’s game, fun for all ages. We’ll play AwareWays’ privacy red-teaming game. I curated with Karen from LivingStory. We’ll do a session on how serious games and social engineering overlap—behavioral change. It’s an amazing day. I’ll miss the nine great speakers on Thursday, but I can play all day with security themes—our hobbies combined. I love it.

Nancy: Tickets and sponsor packages are still available—go grab them. They’re selling fast. If cost is an issue, reach out and they’ll help.

Nancy: Time for some more history lessons.

Ad: Or should we look at the vacancy of the week?

Nancy: Oh, let’s do the vacancy of the week then.

Ad: Because we already talked about Dani.

Nancy: Just now.

Ad: And Dani is also part of Team:Cohesion—and more on that in a future episode.

Nancy: But Team:Cohesion could use some help.

Ad: Dani can’t do it all by herself. She’s a busy bee, and we love her for that. But there are extra tasks that need an extra hand: plans for a silent lounge to cool down if things get overwhelming; help setting up the code of conduct; clarifying the press photo and privacy policy before any press arrives; communications within Cohesion and how others can reach the team; procedures for handling situations, escalation paths, roadmaps—what to do if… These aren’t easy topics, but to create a lovely event where everybody feels safe, seen, welcomed, and cared for, we need this team and help. They’ve also requested a shared workspace and help with small tasks—to take care of things so Cohesion can work their best.

Ad: All teams need people with particular skills, but there’s also lots of tasks that need more hands and more brains. You can help. Even a small task—more on that in a future episode called Tiny Tasks. We’ll have an overview on the wiki; if you have half an hour, pick something and just do it. More on that later.

Ad: Cool, cool, cool.

Ad: All right. Go look at the vacancy page on the wiki, check the team pages, and for Cohesion email cohesion@why2025.org. With that, let’s jump into today’s history lesson.

Ad: Each episode we dive into a piece of history from WHY’s predecessors: Galactic Hacker Party (1989); Hackers at the End of the Universe (1993); Hacking in Progress (1997); Hackers at Large (2001); What the Hack (2005); Hacking at Random (2009); Observe Hack Make (2013); Still Hacking Anyways (2017); May Contain Hackers (2021)—which became May Contain Hackers (2022) after COVID. This week: badges at trade shows and conventions.

Ad: Everybody knows the plastic badge holder or paper on a lanyard with your name, function, employer, sponsor logos, and a barcode or QR code that follows you forever. They’re annoying but useful to know who you’re talking to. People remember names when they see them written. At hacker events, badges can carry your nickname so you recognize each other. A quick search shows many badge types: paper with lanyards in color-codes for speaker, visitor, VIP, staff; acrylic laser-engraved; wooden eco-badges; even metal versions. Some had LEDs and electronics—DEF CON 14 in 2006 was the first badge with actual electronics: two LEDs for the smiley face eyes, a PIC10F200 microcontroller, and a switch. Attendees were invited to hack it. Over years, badges gained more buttons, LEDs, screens, keyboards, even oscilloscope capabilities via analog inputs. Later badges added IR transmitters/receivers for badge-to-badge interaction, puzzles, and games that forced networking. That grew into elaborate, shiny LED displays and name scrollers. This first electronic badge opened the door to tactile tinkering, sharing, learning, and creating. For example, Computerphile’s video on the EMF badge shows MicroPython on a convention badge. We’ll explore Dutch event badges in a future history lesson.

Nancy: I’d like to add a new segment called Questions from Listeners. How many questions did we get from the first three episodes?

Ad: I went through comments on episode 0, episode 1, and episode 2, and I got one. Clipmo asked, “But why?”

Ad: And I think the answer is because we can and because this is what hackers yearn for. So, why? That’s why.

Nancy: That’s amazing—thanks for the question. We’d like to hear more. Send your WHYcast questions about anything WHY-related, and we’ll answer if we want to.

Ad: Yes. And with that, this is the end of episode 3. See you next week.

Nancy: See you next week on Friday—WHYday.